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Sometimes just because we want or don’t want something is all that the answer needs to be. Just to say, this is working for me, this isn’t working for me. When I’m getting into that trying to justify it and explain it, I would agree with you that that very much is a sign that something’s off. Something’s off.

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Welcome to this episode of Retreat and Grow Rich, the podcast, and we’re here in our Transforming Out Loud series. I want to just dive in. Our relationship goes back some time. I actually met Tina, first of all, Tina Forsyth, she was really the inventor, I will say, the innovator who coined the phrase, “online business manager,” and wrote the book, and really created that whole industry in a lot of ways. It was happening in a lot of places, but you were a voice who said “hey, this is a real career, this is something that you can do, you can work from home.” You trained people on how to work with entrepreneurs. I know I took a training from you years ago on how to hire.

You are really the expert at this point when it comes to hiring and the team that supports those of us who are entrepreneurs by nature. You’ve been around a long time, you already had your book and you were established as a business owner when I met you in mastermind years ago. When I first started my business, it was 10 years ago, actually, this is my 10th year anniversary. It might be nine, but right around there. We were in a mastermind together.

Tina was rocking it out, this is from my perspective because I jumped all in. I’m not someone to dilly dally around, I was like, all right, I’m doing this business, I’m going all in. Tina was really established and had things cruising from what I could see, it was like, I can’t wait, I had listened to you on an interview before I met you, and I was like, oh my gosh, you’re that person. Ahh.

Did you know that? I know I told you that, but you may not remember that. You had done an interview with Andrea Lee that I had listened to before I ever met you.

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah.

Darla LeDoux:       10 years ago, we met. You were doing your OBM business, things were cruising. You joined this mastermind, and you were really looking for some kind of shift, some kind of transformation for you in your business. Can you take us back there?

Tina Forsyth:       It’s funny. When you were saying when we met, and you were like, “oh, she’s got it all together,” kind of thing, I don’t know that … Maybe-

Darla LeDoux:       I get that’s not how you felt.

Tina Forsyth:       Well, it’s interesting though. It’s actually something that always comes up for me in the business journey, is, this perspective of, and at times, this expectation that I’ll put on myself, that I have to appear like I have my shit together all the time.

Not to say that I didn’t, I remember when we first met in that mastermind group, and I was very much, I had already been in business for a number of years, working one-on-one, as an OBM, and a few other things for probably about 10 years before then. When you and I met in that mastermind, that was the time when I was taking things to the next level, when I was shifting from me doing my one-on-one thing, through to training, and mentoring, and coaching, and various things at that point.

The journey of that mastermind was the, in many ways, the start of upleveling and really transforming. I don’t even know that I would’ve realized it at the time, but I think you would agree, there’s a lot of transformation that happened and/or started.

Darla LeDoux:       Well, and in that container of the program we were in, which had live retreats, which of course, I believe are always transformational in nature when you’re bringing truth to the room. Just the nature of the program, we were bound to-

Tina Forsyth:       I know for me, one of the things, I remember one of our first retreats, it was that one in … I think they were all in Vegas, maybe, that Red Rock something … I can’t remember the place.

I remember you and I and a few people having a drink at one point during that retreat. It came up in the room, where everybody got to talking about their relationship and everything. And I know for me at the time, I had been married for a number of years- and I also knew pretty darn quick- and if I recall, I think David might’ve even asked us about this in some level, how relationships, or we got to talking in the room about how certain relationships either need to shift and grow with us, or they need to fall away.

And I knew then that my marriage was not going to last. I just knew. That would’ve been what, 2010ish? Timeframe?

Darla LeDoux:       Yep.

Tina Forsyth:       I think. It was amazing to see how, and to start to really see and understand, that I knew this moment of truth, at a gut level, that things were off, and that they weren’t going to work out in the long run, but it was still close to probably another, at least three and a half years after that, before any changes were actually made at all.

Being able to, I mean that’s just one example of… I think a part of that for me was also that there was a part of me hanging onto this idea of okay, everything, I need to hold everything together. I need to look like I’m holding it all together all the time. I need to make this work out, or at least make it look like it’s …I don’t even want to say that I was trying to make it look like it was working out when I wasn’t, but it was this real inclination of, I’m the one who’s got all her shit together, so I need to keep my shit together, is basically-

Darla LeDoux:      Yeah, isn’t it interesting that that’s what I chose to say about you today? You had it all together. That is the thing often that keeps us from transforming. It’s really the reason I launched this series about transforming out loud, because it, so often, whether it is something that happens, that we feel like we have to hide, or some change that we know we need to make, that’s going to fundamentally shift how we think people view us … I know I’m divorced, when I first was divorced, it was really freeing. But, it also felt like I have totally failed. I have totally failed, that was my experience. Which, actually, was like, oh my gosh, I can fail and not die.

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah.

Darla LeDoux:       For you, when you’re in that moment, and I know I was in a relationship at that time that needed to end, but I wasn’t married, when you’re in that moment and you’re being posed with the question of, does a relationship grow with you, or does it need to end, and you have that gut feeling, yet then there’s all the chatter about, what does it mean to actually listen to this. What was that like for you?

Tina Forsyth:       It’s amazing, how good I am at letting the chatter get in the way. I was married in 2001. We split up in 2013. What, give or take 12ish years in total. My gut knew before we even got married, that it wasn’t … it just wasn’t a match. It just wasn’t a match.

I remember because, to give a little bit of context in that regard, we were already living together, we were… I knew there was a ring that had already been purchased, there was no surprise that a proposal was coming, back in the day. Yet, the actual night of the proposal, it was New Year’s Eve, we were at a ski hill, it was no surprise that this was coming.

When the proposal came to me, the first word out of my mouth was no. It was just a gut response.

Darla LeDoux:       You said it out loud?

Tina Forsyth:       I said it out loud. I said, “nope.” Said it out loud. Then, we went back. I went back and I was thinking about it, and then, oh my gosh, here’s where the head kicks in. Oh, but we’re already living together, and what are people going to think, and blah blah blah. Then feeling bad, feeling guilty or feeling bad, for having hurt this person. My no became a yes, probably within 30 minutes. It was a pretty quick turnaround.

I look back on that, and I look back on similar things over the years, like one of my biggest lessons has been and continues to be, honoring my gut response. Being able to really honor what my gut is telling me. When I can honor that, it’s always right. Right for me. I want to be clear with that. My gut, it’s right for me, in the moment. That response.

Darla LeDoux:       You and I both are fans of human design, which, I have an earlier podcast episode about human design if people are familiar with that. When you’re designed with the gut response, and 70% of people have some kind of instantaneous response-

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah. I remember when I learned that, that’s actually part of what led to my divorce, because I had …you and I were in that mastermind, I already knew then, yeah, there’s something not quite working here. Tried and tried and tried, both my husband and I both, to all right, what about this, and what about that, let’s try to make this work.

Then, when I had my very first human design reading, which would be just over six years ago now, I think, that’s where I learned about my gut response, and that listening to my gut is the way that I’m wired.

I remember him saying to me too, he was like, any time you start listening to what’s in your head, that’s where you’re going to get yourself off track. It was honestly one of those moments that was like, it was this light bulb moment. I could look down one way.

I’m talking anything from buying my first house, buying a car, big things in life. When my gut said yes, do it, and I did it, it was all good. Then when I didn’t listen to my gut, when I didn’t honor that response and let my head talk me into things, that’s where the challenge is, that’s where the struggles would come into play. Of course, my marriage being one of those-

Darla LeDoux:       You could think back to when you talked yourself into saying yes originally-

Tina Forsyth:       Oh yes.

Darla LeDoux:       Then again, your gut said no, but you stayed for three more years. Obviously, you have kids, so that’s a piece of, I’m sure, what you were thinking through. How’d that go?

Tina Forsyth:       Here’s the piece too. This is the part that was ultimately challenging, is because from a logical perspective, there was no reason for us to get divorced.

There was nothing going on that was, oh, this person’s cheating, this person’s abusive, or this … there was none of that going on. We’d have our own fights over things and whatever, nothing, pretty standard stuff. Frustrations here and there. In many ways, we were very compatible day to day, and living together and stuff like that.

It was really, logically, it didn’t make any sense for us to get divorced. Then you have kids in the mix, because my girls at that point were five and seven, when we did split up. That adds a whole other layer in, for all kinds of reasons.

Part of it was this idea of, how would I explain this to people. I couldn’t even explain it to myself. How am I going to explain this to other people? I remember when we actually split up, it wasn’t even anything earth-shattering, it was just another day, another conversation that we had had a few times before, and I just remember being like, I’m done. I’m done.

That was the conversation we had. We’ve wrung this towel dry, we’ve tried everything we can try here. I can’t even explain why, other than the fact that we’re done with this.

It turned out to be exactly the thing that made it happen. On both sides of the coin. I can share my story, it’s not up to me to share my ex’s story. The idea of…I remember people saying at the time too, why don’t you get back together?” Conversations with my parents, “why would you break up, what was going on, and blah blah blah. It’s hard to be like, I can’t explain it to you. It just-

Darla LeDoux:       I just knew.

Tina Forsyth:       I just knew. It’s a no. It’s not going to work.

Darla LeDoux:       Tina, do you think that for people listening, if they go into thinking about how they would explain it to someone, do you think that’s a clue, that maybe they’re not listening to what’s true for them?

Tina Forsyth:       I think too, that … what I’ve come to learn…that really started one of the, I would say, that was the first and biggest lesson of recent years, around listening to my gut, honoring that over my head. It took me 12 years to get to that point, even though my gut knew right away. I’ve continued to have this in variations of other scenarios in my business since then.

I think there’s a piece of, and what I’m really learning to honor, is sometimes just because we want or don’t want something is all that the answer needs to be. Just to say this is working for me, this isn’t working for me. When I’m getting into that trying to justify it and explain it, I would agree with you, that that very much is a sign that something’s off. Something’s off.

I know too, one of the things I remember from human design and having …I know you and I geeked out with it to varying degrees over the years, but I also remember somebody saying once, none of us are meant to make decisions from our head. We might be gut people, we might be emotional, sleep on it people, we might be intuitive.

There’s a few different ways we’re wired to make decisions, but none of us are meant to make decisions from our head, and yet what does the world teach us?Think about it.

Darla LeDoux:      Think it through.

Tina Forsyth:        Analyze it. Write it out, blah blah, all that-

Darla LeDoux:      Pros and cons.

Tina Forsyth:       Pros and cons and all kinds of-

Darla LeDoux:       I used to make, I’m a recovering engineer, I used to make spreadsheets with weighting how important an attribute was to the decision. Weighted spreadsheets, no joke.

Tina Forsyth:       I think too, that I know for me is … I’ve had things even up until this past week or so, where it’s just decisions being made that I can’t explain beyond the fact that I’m just following what my gut’s telling me.

That honestly has been probably, and probably will continue to be, one of my bigger- I don’t want to say challenges- but definitely, an ongoing journey and lesson for me to learn. Because the flip side of this too is, there’s also a lot of, I will take people’s … I don’t want to hurt other people, or I have a bit of that people pleaser, avoid confrontation, whatever you want to call it, in me as well, too.

I’m very aware of, in relationships, even in relationships with team members and such, as well over the years, that there’s times that I’ve hung onto things too long there, because I didn’t want to hurt the other person. There’s times I’ve hung onto, and continued to work with people on my team, in ways that were no longer serving, ultimately, either side. Because I felt responsible for, or felt bad for, or whatever that may be, that comes all up in here again too, I would continue to let things keep chugging along, when again, my gut knew.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah. How is that similar to the marriage dynamic?

Tina Forsyth:       It’s a mix of … I think it’s a mix of not wanting to- I think there’s probably a couple of things, and in particular, when I think of team stuff, this is usually what will come up for me. There’s been a couple of instances where I’ve worked really well with people for a period of time, but then you can hit an expiry date with people in our teams. I’ve had people work with me for seven or eight years in the business, and work really, really well together. Even those long-term relationships, there came a point where it’s like, this person’s headed off in a different direction now, things are shifting and changing, we’re all continuing to evolve over time.

It didn’t make sense for us to keep trying. On both sides of the coin, this would happen. This happened with a couple of different team members, where it was like, trying to hang on. “But it used to be so good, or it used to” …all that kind of stuff. There was a bit of trying to hang onto that. Then on the other side of that coin, of “oh, I don’t want to deal with the fact that I’m going to have to make a change here.” Because that’s the other thing that comes up. Oh, if I’m going to make a change, that means, when I’m thinking-

Darla LeDoux:       That’s when the head kicks in, right? All of the-

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah.

Darla LeDoux:       … logical things that need to be handled.

Tina Forsyth:       And/or even the fear of it. It’s like “oh, I’m going to have to … what if I can’t find somebody else, or what if I have to do this, or oh, I just don’t feel like it,” or whatever some of that stuff might be.

I’m sure anyone who’s, when you have team and when you’re building out your business that way, it’s challenging. It can be challenging at times. Yet, it is very much a similar thing though. I’ve had a few instances of where it’s been like, yeah, my gut knew that things weren’t working out. Then I also just tried to make it work out. That’s where this kicked in. I’m going to try to make this work out anyways.

Then my gut knew it wasn’t going to work out. Then it’s like, oh, at what point do I just start listening to my gut earlier.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah.

Tina Forsyth:       Right away.

Darla LeDoux:       Let’s go back to, because I think the divorce … a lot of people can relate to relationships ending. What did you learn in that time? What happened after you made the decision?

Because I know you’re going along and you’re like, okay, I have to have it all together, I have to keep it looking like I have it all together. A lot of that is programming, from childhood, of that being your role of being the one who has it all together.

When you went through that experience, and are moving through all of this challenge, what did that, how did that support you in beginning to shift the having it all together persona, and what were the challenges in that?

Tina Forsyth:       The biggest challenge was recognizing that I don’t have it all together, and being able to learn how to ask for help, and being okay with that.

Darla LeDoux:       Asking … recognizing it for yourself was first? To go “oh, hey.”

Tina Forsyth:       Here’s what would happen. After the divorce, people would say, “oh my gosh, Tina, how’s Dan, how’s the girls, how’s whatever, what’s going on,” all that kind of stuff, and they’d be like, “oh, I know you’ll be fine.” That happened over and over and over and over again. With people who knew me well or people who didn’t know me as well. Friends, family, whatever, other work people.

I remember, it got to the point relatively quickly, where I’m just like, “what about me? What about me? Ask about me.” I’m not going to say that nobody asked about me, but from my perspective, they weren’t.

Here’s the thing, because I had always worn the “I’ve got it all together suit of armor,” even, in some ways. This is the thing too though. It actually is a strength of mine. I know I’m very grounded. I know I’m very, there’s strengths in who I am, and what I do, and how I show up, and what I bring to the table. There’s a strength in that that kicks in.

But it showed up in this, the shadow side of it really started to show up for me after the divorce, because I was like, I needed help. I wanted help. I also didn’t know how to ask for it either. I didn’t know how to ask for it.

Darla LeDoux:       Did you know what you needed?

Tina Forsyth:       I would say right off the bat, I didn’t. I remember having a conversation with someone who was like, “oh, it’s going to take, it takes a good couple of years for things to settle after a divorce.” I remember somebody telling me this, and I’m like, give me a couple of months. I’m like, I’m fine, kind of deal.

That person was right. It really did take a couple of years for things to settle. It also, if anything, it really started to show me the opportunities to ask for and receive help that I was not taking advantage of. Because I have great relationships, I’ve got a lot of people around me, like you and I, Darla, have stayed connected over the years. I’ve got some really great connections with people in many ways. People that I know if I was to say, “hey, can I ask you for something, could I get your help with something,” etc. that they’d be like yeah, absolutely. It’s not that I’m not surrounded by this.

But, I’m not always asking for it. That’s the piece that really started to show up. Even to the degree of things like with, in relation to the kids, in relation to other aspects in the business, and just … it showed up everywhere in life. It wasn’t just the one thing.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah. Becoming aware, first of all, that maybe you needed some support, and then that you didn’t know how to ask, how did you move through that, and what have you taken with you?

Tina Forsyth:       It’s looking to be more clear. First and foremost, for myself, and this is something I need to remind myself of on a pretty regular basis, because I think that whatever programming that I was raised with in whatever way, shape, or form, that stuff goes pretty deep.

My default mode is always “let me figure it out, let me roll up my sleeves, let me blah blah blah blah blah.” That’s my default mode. To a degree, I have to be pretty vigilant with okay, where could I use some help, where would I like to have some help, and again, this can be life or business. It can be on either side of the coin.

Then, being very purposeful to ask for it and to receive it. To receive it. It can still feel bloody uncomfortable for me. It almost feels decadent sometimes, to be like, “oh, I’m going to ask for help with something, when in theory, I could do this on my own?”

Darla LeDoux:      Decadent in a way that you might judge?

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah. Almost-

Darla LeDoux:       As opposed to, oh, feels really decadent, I love it.

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah. It almost becomes a little guilty pleasure. It’s like oh, I love it. Then there’s that part of me at times though, that I have to be really vigilant with, that’s sort of like “oh, you could do that yourself.” It’s funny, for me, I’m much better at asking for help in my business, than I am in my personal life. Some people, it might be opposite, or it might be a little even.

I’m much better at asking for help, and continue to evolve in my own leadership of course, but with team and such over the years, I’ve learned a lot in that regard. For me, it’s more on the personal side, when it’s kind of like “hey, can you come help with the kids,” or something along those lines. Those are the kind of things where I might be a little bit like, might kick in some of that. I don’t know if that’s mom guilt or whatever. Whatever to call that at times.

Darla LeDoux:       I think it can be a little more vulnerable. We have this … when you’re doing a business, first of all, you’re paying people. There’s that, there’s an agreement that of course you need help in your business. In life, we have this way of feeling like, you should be able to do life on your own.

Tina Forsyth:       Even things, I’m-

Darla LeDoux:       Cultural value.

Tina Forsyth:       I have a house cleaner, I’ve had her forever. I’m fine with that. I think there are certain things too where I’m like, for years now, it’s been like, “oh, I would love to get help with meals, meal prep and all that kind of stuff.” Then there’s “oh, no, I’m supposed to like cooking.” I don’t. Let’s get real. I’m already, I’m in my mid-40s and I still don’t like it. I don’t think that’s going to change. It’s like, “oh, I should be doing this, or I should be doing that,” or whatever some of those things are, that kick in.

The asking for help thing, it runs, It’s been a huge part of my own challenge, and it’s also something that comes up all the time for my clients.

One of the things we’ll do, one of the things I’ve had my clients do in some programs and such, around this idea of asking, asking beyond what’s comfortable. Go into, I don’t know about you Darla, but some people may relate to this, I can go into a grocery store, and I’m looking for a certain type of mustard or something. Somebody can come up and say “hey, can I help you find something?” I don’t have any idea where this mustard is, but I’ll still be like “no, I’m good, thanks.” Then I’ll walk around and keep looking for it on my own.

It’s like, what the hell? This person just said, can I help you find something, and I’m like, no, I’m good. I’m good. It’s that piece, that just starting to learn to say yes, I’d like this help. Ask for help, and then also be able to receive it.

Darla LeDoux:       We always talk about asking someone to help put your luggage up, even if you’re capable of doing it on your own.

Tina Forsyth:       Yes.

Darla LeDoux:       As a practice.

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah. As a practice. Exactly. There’s something, I don’t know, I can only speak as a woman, being a woman. Not to say this doesn’t apply across the board. There is something about the have it all, or we should have it all, or we should be able to do it all, kind of thing. It really, I think that’s also done a number in certain ways, on us. Where I know it has for me a little bit, where I should be able to be like “oh, I’m a mom, I’m a single mom, I’m a business owner, I’m a woo.” It’s like okay, at the same time, it’s like, good Lord, if anybody needs help, I do. You know what I mean? There’s a lot going on. It becomes a heavy burden to carry, if I’m not purposeful that way.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah. That’s awesome. So one of the things I teach is how transformation works. I want to frame it up to the situation where you’re realizing you need to leave your marriage. I also want to look at, and how has that shown up recent … what I want for this series is to really first of all, free people to recognize that just because things happen in life that people might feel are major, like a divorce, that it’s just a decision, and it’s just part of the process of becoming more whole and complete in who we are. The less we judge it, and the more we embrace it, the easier it becomes to lead.

In the process of transformation that I teach, we have this first stage which is discomfort, something isn’t quite feeling comfortable, and then desire. We’ll just use the context of the mastermind. You joined because there was some desire or some discomfort. Something you wanted to change or something you wanted to move toward. Do you remember what that was, that had you join?

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah. At that point, I had just hit six figures in my business. Doing my own thing in that way. There was a big desire to take the business to the next level. Financially was a part of it. Even more so, what’s the word I’m looking for, I just wanted to. I wanted to create something new.

Absolutely, some ego and such that was in there too, from “hey, let me create something really cool and put it out there.” There was also a lot, at that time, which I think still can continue to this time, there was a lot of “everybody else is doing it, I should too,” kind of thing. I felt that way about it, where it’s like, “oh my gosh, this is what I’m supposed to do next, and this is what it’s supposed to look like.” There was a lot of that leading into that time.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah. I’m imagining, creating just because I want to, there was a certain leadership that was calling to you.

Tina Forsyth:       Definitely. I had, you mentioned the OBM side, the certified OBM side of things, I had written my book, I had started an association, I had done one training, and it was really this call to lead space for me, to be able to say okay, I need to be officially stepping out in front of this. Making it my only thing.

The other thing that happened at that point was, I spent a good few years doing both things. I was working still as an online business manager for a couple of clients, while I was writing my book, and building up the … I’m running the first certification training, and etc. When I joined that mastermind, that was a time where I knew okay, I had to drop the being and working as an OBM side, and I had to strictly focus on this new side. Until I did that, as I made that decision, and let go of some of that old stuff, that’s where things really shifted and changed.

It was definitely a call to lead in that regard. A call to lead, I feel like that could be a whole other topic. It’s not always a call that we’re willingly wanting to answer, in some ways.

Darla LeDoux:       I think, and this is what I see a lot, and what I hear in your story is, a lot of times, we hear the call to lead, and it’s like, oh, okay, some part of us knows, that’s what I’m meant to do. We have no idea what that really means. And if we did, we probably wouldn’t do it.

Tina Forsyth:       Honest to God, that’s true. There’s a little bit of, there’s times I look back over certain things in the past 10 years, let’s say, and it’s like oh, if I had known that ahead of time, I don’t know. In hindsight, it’s all great, because it’s all part of the growth and expansion, absolutely.

Darla LeDoux:       So when we have that desire, that call, in comes the commitment stage, which a lot of times, is, in our world, is joining a program. Signing up for a container to support the transformation, that shift into the desire.

Tina Forsyth:       And/or letting go of something. I know this comes up a lot when I work with my clients in this space, it’s often things like letting go of certain clients, letting go of certain team members, letting go of certain programs. There’s a two-sided coin to that that comes into play, where it’s like, we can see where we’re headed, and then also being willing to let go of certain things as well.

Darla LeDoux:       We don’t always know what to let go of. I think that’s the piece, once we’re committed, our …

Tina Forsyth:       I don’t know. In my experience, I’ve always fricking known what to let go of, I just wasn’t always willing to face it.

Darla LeDoux:       That’s, yeah. Well,

Tina Forsyth:       For me-

Darla LeDoux:       Did you know going in to the mastermind, that you were going to need to leave your marriage, to get to where you wanted to go?

Tina Forsyth:      Yeah. First and foremost, our very first mastermind meeting, I was still partnered with Andrea Lee doing the OBM training and certification. Her and I had- we’d worked together and she’d played a key role in creating that with me- I remember that very first mastermind meeting, as she put it, we broke up.

We’re really, we’re still very close, we’re good friends, and do all kinds of things together. But at first, it was like, oh, Andrea and I can’t do this together. She has her thing, and she was doing her stuff, and then I was really wanting to focus on this. I knew that needed to end, and that ended right away. We both knew it needed to end.

Darla LeDoux:       You knew it before you even stepped into the container?

Tina Forsyth:       Before we left that first retreat. We were there the first day of the retreat, that night was like oh yeah, this needs to change. I also knew from then too, that my marriage was going to end at a certain point.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah.

Tina Forsyth:       That’s the gut thing. That’s where I say, I don’t know if it’s true for everybody, to always know what needs to change. I often know. I don’t always know where I’m headed, but I do know what I need to let go of. That’s probably been more true for my journey than the opposite. I really don’t-there’s many times I don’t always know where I’m headed-

Darla LeDoux:       What do you think keeps people from being present to the truth of what they need to let go of? Because to me, that’s where the transformation happens, when we can get present to the truth, and embrace it.

Tina Forsyth:       I know for me, when I’m hanging onto things past their expiry date, it’s usually a mix of wanting what I wanted it to be to be true, and being in denial that it’s not. It’s a mix of that. “But this or that, or it could be this, or I thought it would be that,” or whatever. It’s a mix of that, combined with the not wanting to deal with the fact that ending something’s hard too. It always is. Letting go of, if we’re letting go of clients, or letting go of team, or letting go of business, certain things that we used to do, and we’re not going to do anymore.

Any time we’re ending something, it is, it’s challenging. And it also brings up, I’m going to end this, so now I’m going to have to take a look at this and deal with this side of it too.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah. Because a lot of times, the thing we have to let go of is something that’s a nice pattern we’re running, or excuse that we have going, that keeps us from the next thing.

Tina Forsyth:       It’s really easy to tolerate. We can tolerate things and be comfortable as long as we want to be.

Then there’s a bit of a slow, there’s an erosion that happens in that too. I think for me over the years, if anything, I’ve gotten to the point where, because it always comes to me, to a point where I’m just like, I’m done with something. I’m just, try, try, avoid, avoid, whatever you want to call it. Try to get all caught up in this and make things work in whatever fashion, even though my gut’s telling me otherwise. It’s like this slow leak, a deflating balloon or something along those lines, where if anything over the years, I get to that point quicker, of “oh no, this is just, yeah, this ain’t going to work,” and I need to deal with this now and quit trying to put it off.

But I think that there is a cost. There’s a cost to staying comfortable, there’s a cost to tolerating. There’s a cost of avoiding.

Darla LeDoux:       When I’ve let go of things, I almost immediately, even if there’s things to navigate, feel the energy shift, and feel like I have so much more energy to navigate it, because-

Tina Forsyth:       It’s a huge relief, I think, for me. That’s the other thing too, where I know that- when you were saying earlier about, okay, if we’re trying to talk ourselves into something is that a sign of it, of a change that may need to happen- I think that’s bang on. It definitely is for me.

It does become a relief of, oh my gosh, okay, done. The decision’s made, even if there’s some stuff to deal with as a result of that decision, that moment of “decision made, done,” that’s how I know it’s the right decision for me, because there’s no part of me that doubts it after the fact. There’s no part of me that doubts it. I can’t always explain it, if somebody comes to me and is like, “explain this, why, I need to understand it”-

Darla LeDoux:       I think that’s so interesting, because we do that to each other. We don’t know what else to talk about. “Tell me why. Tell me why,” as opposed to, what would it be like if we instead said “oh, what’s that made available for you, or being able to honor a response.”

Tina Forsyth:      To honor, you know, when we’re talking guts and response and human design and such too. To be able to honor the fact that this is a no, just because it’s a no. That’s all there is to it. Versus, this is a no because I need to…for whatever, that’s where the head’s kicking in. “I’m trying to make sense of it,” or “I’m trying to whatever,” and all that. That’s where our head’s definitely kicking in, to certain things.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah. How does this show up with team? One of the questions that came up for me, and I really relate to… I recently saw a video where someone was talking about, they had someone that worked for them for five years, they weren’t necessarily doing anything wrong, but they weren’t a 10, they weren’t a rockstar. This sense of obligation of I’ve been giving them a paycheck for five years so they expect a paycheck next month, and next … how does honoring your gut in decision and not needing to explain it, how does that show up? I think about the woman who was talking about it, and how she was rational. She didn’t have a reason to give this person necessarily. They always showed up on time, they always did their thing, but they just weren’t right.

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah. That’s where that … there can either be things that are not working logically or structurally and such, which I think it’s important to get some of these things in place.

Then there are also times where it’s like, that reason/season/lifetime. People come into our lives for a reason, a season or a lifetime. You know Tiffany, who worked with me for years, and if you would’ve asked either one of us a few years ago of, hey, would we continue to work together, we would’ve said yeah, until the end of time, kind of deal. We both would’ve said that. We both still say that sometimes. Even though we haven’t been working together now for a couple of years.

But there were circumstances that changed in life. It wasn’t even, it had nothing to do with, oh this, or that, or even with the business. There were just things that shifted in her life and some things that were shifting in the business. It got to the point where it was like, “yeah, this ain’t working anymore.”

We really tried to make that work. We tried to find a space where everything could work, and it just got to the point where it’s like, this isn’t working anymore. We have to honor the fact that this season is coming to an end.

That’s really hard. I want to be able to open up some space if I may within this, to just really acknowledge, business relationships can be as deep and challenging and hard as any other relationship in life. Yet, we tend to trivialize team stuff sometimes. There can be a breakup, there can be a mourning period, there can be, it can be as challenging, and in some cases, even a heck of a lot more challenging, as any other important relationship in our lives.

And I think there are times when it’s like, especially if we’ve done our role as leaders, and we’ve been really purposeful around “okay, have I set expectations, and laid out accountability, and empowered this person and given them what they need and boom, boom, boom.” There’s aspects as leaders, that we want to, when we’ve done our work there, and it’s just not working out, “okay, yes.: That’s where it logically makes sense for something to end.

But there can be times too, when, especially in businesses like ours, that these are pretty purposed-based businesses, as we continue to grow and evolve as leaders, it’s the same idea of what really hit home for me in that mastermind, in relation to my marriage 10 years ago, that was like, as we continue to grow and evolve, that doesn’t mean everybody in our team is going to continue to grow and evolve with us. That’s not a reflection on a person like oh, they’re just whatever. It’s not this. It’s often this, in some ways. There can be a parting of ways, that needs to happen.

The challenge is, like you said, how do I- there’s the obligation, there’s the commitment, there’s the relationship, there’s …when you’ve worked with someone for a long time, not to say you have to be buddy buddy, we’re going on vacation together, but there is a relationship there, often, that transcends the work you do together.

Ultimately, it’s a real disservice to them, to you, and to the business, to keep a working relationship past its due date. It really is.

Darla LeDoux:       Because they could be going on to something else also.

Tina Forsyth:       I don’t want to be cheeky about that, because it’s always easy to throw out the, “oh, hey, there’s something better out there for you, and blah, and everything happens for a reason.” There’s some of these things that get bandied about, I think a little too much sometimes, and that can feel a little cheesy around that.

But at the same time, it’s bang on true. When we know if we’ve done … I feel like my role as a leader is to really be clear first and foremost, where is the business headed and what does the business need. That’s my role as a leader. Then to be able to see okay, who’s on the team now, where are they fitting in, where can they, what they can grow into, what can they continue to grow into, or not. If it’s an “or not,” that’s where changes need to be made.

And, to be really willing and purposeful to know that we have done all we can as leaders to really support and see how we can make something work. As opposed to, because it can be equally as easy to say, forget it, forget it, forget it, and always, “this person didn’t work, this person” … that’s another form of a pattern in things too, where that kind of stuff shows up.

Darla LeDoux:       I love the question, “what does the business need?” Which can take it out of the personal …

Tina Forsyth:       We talk a lot in our OBM community, in the training and in the certified OBM community, about the fact that your client isn’t your client, it’s their business that’s your client.

Because, me as a business owner, I’m wired a certain way, I might think a certain way, I might want things a certain way. That doesn’t mean that that’s what’s best for the business. That doesn’t mean that when somebody comes in and they’re bringing something that maybe they’re not like me, or they don’t move as…because I’m pretty high on quick start, if we’re talking… some of that stuff. It’s a common gap in teams, where one person’s like “woo,” and the other people are like, “whoa, whoa, whoa.”

The business needs the whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s slow down for a minute, let’s make sure we got this in place. Let’s take a look at that. That’s good for the business. That’s not always fun for me. I’m like, “come on now!”

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah. Right.

Tina Forsyth:       All of that. But the team piece, I think it’s that same idea of, we want to be able to honor our gut within it, and to really be aware of …there is an expiry date that we can go past when we’ve had long-term team members that ultimately needs to be … if we go too far past that expiry date, it’ll just blow up on its own anyways, right?

Darla LeDoux:       So when you make gut decisions, and then you have team that maybe doesn’t …you can’t logically explain why this decision is coming from your gut, how do you think about that when you’re expanding your team, and bringing on other people who have decision making authority?

How do you delegate your gut? Do you bring in other people who know how to trust their gut? Because that’s a different way of doing business. If we think about even traditional human resources, which has the list of all of the things you need to do to be able to fire someone, for example, there’s no place in there for “oh, my gut just said we were at our expiration date.”

Tina Forsyth:       Part of it is, knowing who owns what decision. One of the things I talk about in team building, is, we as the leaders, it’s up to us to determine the what, and then it’s up to our team to determine the how. Because it’s my business, it’s my responsibility to determine what’s our vision, what are our offerings, what are we doing, what are our goals, boom boom boom boom. That’s all up to me, ultimately, because it’s my business. Not to say my team may not have things to contribute, but ultimately, those decisions are up to me.

As those things are clear, and this is not to say this is easy, but this is the goal of a way, especially as we shift from the hierarchical way of working together to the collaborative way of working together, is we want to have our team members then freed up to determine the how. It’s like “hey, here’s what needs to happen, we need to get something in place that will do blah blah blah, or take care of X kind of thing.”

Me as a default, because I’m a pretty good doer, and I can figure stuff out and all that kind of stuff can kick in, it can be really easy for me to get in the way of all the how. Whereas, if I say to a team member, okay, here’s the what, here’s what I’m looking for, here’s what we’re going to measure our progress or success against, is this particular thing happening or being put into play.

To leave them, to follow their own, to make the decisions, to honor their own responses, whatever that may be, in relation to that, that’s that distinction there, if that makes sense.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah. That’s an awesome distinction. I love it.

Tina Forsyth:       Because we’ll often get in the way of that, some of us. I know I can.

Darla LeDoux:       Oh totally. Especially when it’s, I could do it faster myself. Because I know how I like it done. Where, someone else may do it different and better.

Tina Forsyth:       There’s always a cost to the “I can do it faster myself thing” though. That one adds up over time, that’s for sure.

Darla LeDoux:       Yes. Oh, I’ve, yes, experienced that many, many times. Many times. For me, that’s happened in cycles at different times, where I just have decided, forget it, I’m just going to do it all myself. All of it. At every level of my business, I’ve done that. Forget it, I’m just going to do it myself.

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah.

Tina Forsyth:       Well, and it’s a very realistic thing that we come up against in business. I think for many of us, those of us who can, because we can do it. It’s sort of what we were talking about earlier, I can do it, I can take care of things, oh, etc. As a default mode, that’s what I go to. Then I will.

Darla LeDoux:       Yeah. For sure. Tina, how can, I know you’re in the midst of writing a new book, which isn’t ready for discussion yet, but how can people work with you, connect with you, get on your list so that they know when it’s time to get the new book?

Tina Forsyth: is my main website. You can hop on my newsletter list there, for those who are interested. I also have a Facebook group, Fearless Women Leaders

Darla LeDoux:       Awesome.

Tina Forsyth:       … we talk about some of these kinds of things in this journey of life and business and leadership, and that-

Darla LeDoux:       And you do a lot of videos where you really cut to the heart of the issue, I think, and talk about things that people aren’t necessarily talking about.

Tina Forsyth:       I like to be able to shine a light on things in a way that might be like oh, and, here’s what we can do about it, too. Because there is … that’s the whole heart of this entire series and everything, the transformation piece. We’re always being called to transform, whether we like it or not. Honestly. I know for myself, there’s, any time I’m dealing with something and working through something and evolving, I like to share as much as I can, because chances are, someone else is in the same boat, in whatever way, shape, or form.

Because we’re all in this thing together, that’s the ultimate-

Darla LeDoux:       It’s typically timely. When I’m personally going through something, it’s always timely. Others in my community are, I see it with my clients, they are having similar challenges they’re moving through, because it’s up in the collective consciousness. That’s something that I really admire about you, is you put that, you’re putting videos out and you’re speaking about the things that people may be feeling or sensing, but they’re maybe not aware of, or not talking about.

Tina Forsyth:       Yeah. I appreciate that, because I aim to do that if I can. I aim to do that.

Darla LeDoux:       Yes. Awesome. 

Darla LeDoux:       I don’t think I’m in your Facebook group, I’ll have to go get in there. Fearless Women Leaders Facebook group as well.

Tina Forsyth:       Awesome.

Darla LeDoux:       Anything else you want to leave people with?

Tina Forsyth:       Just own what it is you really want. And/or don’t want. Because sometimes, it’s a matter of I don’t know what I want, but I know what I don’t want. Either way, just the fact that we do or don’t want something, that is enough to make our decisions from that space.

Darla LeDoux:       Awesome. I love it. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you for sharing your transformation journey.

For those of you listening, whatever it is you’re moving past, however you’re … I think the nugget of gold is, if your mind is trying to figure out how you’re going to explain your decision to someone, you’re looking in the wrong place. Make the decision first based on what’s true for you, and the rest will line itself up.

Thank you Tina. Have an amazing day everyone.

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