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It’s our responsibility to come up with a way to create the magic, above and beyond the promise and the expectation. Because we get people there on that promise and expectation, but then it’s up to us to create the context that the real stuff actually occurs.

– Justin Livingston

Darla LeDoux: Hello, and welcome to Retreat and Grow Rich, the podcast. This is Darla LeDoux, your host, and I’m super excited to bring you the one and only Justin Livingston for today’s interview. Welcome, Justin.

Justin Livingston: Hello, hello. Yeah, thanks. I’m happy to be here. As it turns out, I’m not the one and only. I was googling my name recently and there’s some guy in fashion who’s becoming quite the celebrity. So anyway, if you google my name-

Darla LeDoux: In fashion? Okay.

Justin Livingston: And you read about him and not me, I guess I got to up my game.

Darla LeDoux: Well, you had Natalie style you, so I’m sure you’re playing in the same arena as him.

Justin Livingston: Right. That’s right. The competitive advantage.

Darla LeDoux: So I just want to let people know who you are. Justin is the CEO and co-founder of MentorHub, a startup whose mission is to disrupt education globally, making all forms accessible to everyone, everywhere. Justin was my mentor for two years along my journey, and he is absolutely a go-to expert for strategy in the online marketing space overall. And specifically, around events, all manner of event filling, how to use events strategically to grow your business and more.

So Justin, I’m super excited you’re here and I haven’t caught up with you in a while. So like I’m really excited to learn what you’re seeing as trends in this space. You and your partner, Callan Rush, have innovated this space. I didn’t know about you guys and when I learned about you, I was like, oh, that’s kind of what I’ve been doing.

So I really loved getting in and being able to coach with you and have you help me develop my business. Together, we created a funnel that filled my live retreats for about three years, actually, with me having no sales calls.

Justin Livingston: Nice.

Darla LeDoux: So for those of you listening, first of all, Justin, I often kind of downplay my achievements, that’s something I’m working on. But when someone really knows what it takes to have a funnel that actually works, let alone fill a live event without sales calls, it’s like, wow, that’s amazing.

Justin Livingston: That’s great.

Darla LeDoux: Yes, thank you for helping me to do that, and I can’t wait to talk a little bit about where you see the event space going, and even some of the changes that I’ve made on my end. So I’m excited to dive in. But what do you want people to know, just a little bit about you and kind of why you devote your life to this kind of work?

Justin Livingston: Well, yeah, I don’t know how much more there is to me. I think you pretty much covered it all. I’m a pretty simple guy and there’s not too much to my life. Really, there’s three things, only three spokes to my life. And one of them is my business and professional side of things, which you covered there. And I’ve got a relationship with a lovely woman named Chelsea and we have a couple of dogs, so whatever, a little family or whatever you want to think of it.

And I used to be a professional fighter, which I’m older now, I don’t compete anymore, but I still train a lot and teach martial arts, a grappling methodology called Brazilian jiu-jitsu. So I do that pretty much every day. I take Saturdays off, but those are the only three things that exist in my reality.

And, yeah, as far as the professional side of things-

Darla LeDoux: I mean, disrupting education globally is no small thing.

Justin Livingston: No, and I haven’t pulled it off yet. So that one is definitely a wait and see.

Yeah, I like leveraging my time and my experience and my knowledge and my interest and all that, through people, companies, individuals, who are helping humanity in some way, shape or form. In the industry we refer to it as transformation leaders or the transformation industry.

And, yeah, so opportunities like this, to be of value, hopefully, I guess the listener can decide for themselves once this is over. But opportunities to be of value to that group of people, yeah, I covet them. So I’m looking forward to this conversation.

Darla LeDoux: Awesome. Okay. I’m going to ask you about jiu-jitsu at the end.

Justin Livingston: Okay, great.

Darla LeDoux: Early on in my business, I had a client who used jiu-jitsu in his coaching and so I’m curious.

Justin Livingston: Oh, sweet.

Darla LeDoux: So Justin, tell me a little bit about what you are seeing lately. You’ve made some big changes yourself in your business. I used to go on retreat with you and your team, and our listeners are either retreat leaders or aspiring retreat leaders. They love transformation, they love the opportunity to be together live and creative experiences for people.

So I was a part of experiences that you and your team created, and you’ve shut that down. That program is no longer there.

Justin Livingston: I did, yeah.

Darla LeDoux: Can you share a little bit about just what you’re noticing, in terms of trends and kind of the choices you’ve made around events?

Justin Livingston: Yeah, there’s a couple of different things that come to mind when you ask that, and essentially, in a certain regard, they’re opposites of one another. And there’s beginning, and from my perspective, there’s beginning to be more of a divide, I guess you could say, in the live event space, with regards to what’s effective

What’s effective for transformation for people, what’s effective for people being aware of, and being able to take on new skillsets, from a learning perspective, and what’s effective from a business perspective, with those of us who are using a live event not only as a mechanism to depart or transmit some awareness or skill or learning of some kind, but also as a mechanism for creating revenues and profits and growing our business and stuff.

And we’ll talk about a couple different contexts. But I’m assuming that your listeners are going to be heavily tilted towards one than the other, especially because you’re using the word retreat, which implies, typically implies a smaller, more intimate context, usually implies a deeper dive into a specific area of content or body of work.

Darla LeDoux: Yeah, I think of a retreat as any multi-day experience with the intention of creating new awareness and a permanent gift for someone. So it could be a larger group, if it is designed for that intimacy. So whether it’s smaller groups or exercises, experiential exercises, partner exercises, things like that. But the design is intentional about creating transformation.

Justin Livingston: Yeah. Okay. That’s great. So I think you hit on the magic word there, in my opinion, and that’s intimacy. And from a business perspective, it’s what makes live events so magical, really. Because it’s a way that we can create a context whereby we can create intimacy, without there literally being the typical connotation of what that word means. Intimacy would, usually in our day to day dialogue, if we’re talking about intimacy, we’re talking about two people in some depth of connection, right?

And now, how do you create that depth of connection when it’s not just two people? It’s got to expand into whether it’s four people or eight people or 1,000 people. But with a well structured and designed live event, you and I both know that it can happen, it can occur. And that’s why, really, that’s the essence of why this idea of transformation is able to be propagated en mass, right? Like if it was all in a one-on-one context, it’d take a long time.

Darla LeDoux: I also often present the case that actually in a group, it’s easier, because, I mean, it’s harder because it’s more vulnerable, but it’s easier in that you’re being witnessed. And a lot of the transformation comes in the witnessing, right? My favorite quote, you can’t accept a part of yourself you haven’t shared with another human being and had validated, rather than violated.

And when you’re one-on-one with a coach, it’s like, oh, we can validate all day long. But at some level, you’re thinking, I’m paying this coach to validate me. But when you’re in a room of strangers who have no vested interest in you feeling good, there’s some healing that happens.

Justin Livingston: That’s a great point. And that’s what you’re speaking to is, one of the points I was going to make though, I think you’re making it better than I was going to, and that’s the idea where to achieve this idea of intimacy, it’s not only… From a business perspective, like if I’m leading a live event, let’s say, if I’m creating an intimate and depth of connection with me as the facilitator, there’s going to be a level of transformation that affords me. There’s going to be a level of relationship that that affords me, with regards to now selling potentially, or growing my business and whatnot.

But the idea of making sure that that intimacy and connection is occurring between the members in the audience, what you’re referring to, that’s where the real, in my opinion, that’s where the magic is. And those types of events, those are the ones that more and more, like for me, the trend, now in a marketplace that is more… It’s not saturated, but it’s more saturated than it used to be. And I’ll use the word competitive, which sometimes people don’t like that word, and it’s probably not the best word to use.

But the way I like to think of it is that, in the area of transformation, so anyone who’s a transformation leader, regardless of what kind of sub niche you’re in, whether you’re helping women with, I don’t know, prioritization and self-esteem maybe. Or, whether you’re helping businesses with their social media. Or, whatever the range is of things you could be doing out there, particular healing modalities or whatever.

Your audience has awarenesses now that they didn’t used to have. And so as an example, whatever any one of us might be promising as a result from our retreat, our audiences are savvy enough to know that even if your event is awesome, and even if they believe you that it is, they still understand that they have other options. They have other things that they could be doing, live events or otherwise, that could give them the same or a similar result.

So now, there’s the actual… If you relate it to any other kind of industry, where there’s, I don’t know, think about vehicles or whatever, it doesn’t matter, but any type of a mature audience or market, sorry, eventually, the quality of the product matters, eventually. In a young market, not so much, right? You just make a good promise and you’re good. Everything’s new and novel and everyone’s excited. But in a mature market, that’s not the case.

So now, as opposed to just holding a retreat, like having a great experience for people, and having an experience that actually gets people the very transformation that they invested in, how it should be obvious, is becoming more and more important and more and more paramount. That was where my mind went right away, with regards to trends and the first one.

Darla LeDoux: You used the word divide.

Justin Livingston: Yeah, well, basically, I was breaking it up into like what I would refer to as a retreat and what I would refer to as a seminar. And again, we’re just giving meaning to words here. So it’s not necessarily an idea that’s in conflict to yours, but the literal language was.

A seminar to me, as you were saying, a multi-day experience that either gives someone an awareness or a transformation, I think that’s a phenomenal distinction. To me, a seminar is the awareness side of things, whereas a retreat is the transformation side. And again, it’s just my own little semantics, I guess. But on the awareness-

Darla LeDoux: I think of seminar as presenting information.

Justin Livingston: I was going to say, where the split is, there’s some commonalities and trends there, but some differences. On the seminar side, the trends are moving more towards… because it’s more awareness driven or information driven, how you achieve intimacy or provide us an experience for people is a little bit different. A lot of the methodologies are the same, like getting people interacting together and sharing with one another and stuff like that. But typically, the environment doesn’t hold for the same kind of depth, like the context isn’t there.

So in that case, what’s becoming more and more and more effective is having more, what I would call, elements of mainstream entertainment. The seminar world is kind of merging in a way with things like a rock concert or a music show, something like that. With big screens and lights and loud music and people dancing and waving their arms and doing those types of high energy state changes, and using-       

Darla LeDoux: A lot of video

Justin Livingston: Yes, yes. So they’re legitimately entertaining, whereas in the retreat space, some of those technologies and things kind of apply. I’ve noticed a trend in retreats where what I would call the production quality, like the venues that people choose and the types of decor that they tend to… Just appearance of them alone is trending to be richer and deeper. People are putting a lot of time and energy and even money investing into creating the physical space, which is similar. It’s just a totally different flavor, it’s not like lights and video technically, but it’s rich with, depending on the type of event, it’s got to be contextual, of course. But rich with certain comforts that are relative to whatever that content area is.

Darla LeDoux: Comforts or discomforts. We’re talking about getting people out of their comfort zone. Yeah, so I don’t do very many international retreats. I do maybe one a year. But we just came back from one in Mexico, where we took a van, to a bus, to a boat, to a thing, to be able to do this certain experience in the middle of nowhere with no people.

Justin Livingston: Wonderful.

Darla LeDoux: It was part of our lazy experience.

Justin Livingston: Yeah, that’s awesome.

Darla LeDoux: People don’t give themselves the experience of doing nothing. I mean, that’s not a reasonable thing to do for an entry level or front end retreat. Right?

Justin Livingston: Yeah. But to me, yeah, like, that’s the flip side of the seminar side, like the entertainment, whereas you’re doubling down on the experience of the participant. And more and more, people are putting a lot of thought into, what is it, I mean, even before the event and after the event too, what is it that makes, above and beyond the transformation, what is it that makes their engagement with you and your company and your event truly memorable?

Darla LeDoux: Exactly. And I want to say too, for that experience, the people that came on that experience had all been clients in something else before. So many people have visions of taking people around the world and like I’m just going to put up a page, which is essentially the equivalent of putting a flyer in a coffee shop and then I’m going to cross my fingers and hope it fills.

So I just want people to know that the people that invested in that with me, had been clients in some other form in the past.

Justin Livingston: Yeah. So they either have to have that existing relationship, or you have to put pretty pictures of the venue on the page, then you’re good.

Darla LeDoux: Pretty pictures will get you so far, in my opinion. And so Justin, can we talk a little bit about the spiral business model?

Justin Livingston: Of course.

Darla LeDoux: When I was in your work, that was what you were teaching, just in general, for the teaching for the group. The spiral business model, you and Callan had used it to build a $6 million business?

Justin Livingston: Yeah, well, it was more than that. But you had to consider the fact that we’re in the Canadian currency. So it was worth next to nothing in American dollars, but in Canadian dollars, whoa, we were rolling in it.

Darla LeDoux: So this is not something that’s just a theory, this is something you guys used for years and years, and it works and you taught it. And so talk a little bit about that business model, and kind of how you see it now. And I would say, both, if someone is more oriented toward retreat leader, or if they’re more oriented toward seminar, or event, or information dissemination, kind of a person.

Justin Livingston: Yeah, in both cases, it’s pretty similar, but I’d be more than happy to make that distinction. And the distinction for me just comes down to the deliverable, whether it’s awareness or transformation. That differentiation sometimes can be subtle, right? But, yeah, happy to talk about that.

In the model that Callan and I built, we did both, we had awareness pieces on the front end, and then we had several layers of transformation on the back end. And anyway, if anyone doesn’t know what those words mean, I will explain them.

So the idea of a spiral business model is essentially, it’s thinking through in advance, what’s the evolution of transformation that you want to take someone through? What’s the transformational journey? As opposed to thinking of it as a one off thing. I’m going to help X segment with Y result.

Instead of thinking of it as a one off, which in most contexts is actually very difficult to build a business around. It’s not difficult to build a hobby around it. And in some cases, you can build a decent practice around it, depending on what the content area is, and you can have like a coaching practice or something like that. But to build like a full on business with any degree of scale, pretty tough. But if you think through an evolution of transformation, it’s a lot easier.

So the idea behind it is pretty simple in concept. And it is that inherent in any solution of any kind is a new set of problems. And I just consider that to be a truism of life. We can apply that to just about anything, right? You solve any solution to any problem, actually, it just creates a higher magnitude of problems. Higher magnitude meaning more, but also, they’re of a-

Darla LeDoux: Better problems.

Justin Livingston: They’re more complex. A great example is, there was a time when there was no computers, right? Everyone would just write stuff down on paper and businesses had rooms full of filing cabinets, where they would keep all their records and documentation.

And then someone came along and said, oh, wow, this is going to get way easier. Just keep this one box on your desk and you can write it all in and it’ll sort it all for you. It’s like, oh, great, this has got way easier. But now, we have, since the invention of the computer, now all the sudden, we have new problems that didn’t exist before. Things like do I have enough memory? Is the CPU on this computer, is it fast enough? Do we have the monitors and paraphernalia that we need?

Darla LeDoux: Don’t forget, can I find my password?

Justin Livingston: Can I find my password? Yes, great.

So these are all, at that time, these were now problems that literally did not exist before the solution was provided. That’s the base concept. So the discipline or the execution of this comes from thinking about what it is that you do and your particular body of knowledge and expertise and content area or transformation area. And considering what is it when you take people through the transformation that you’re looking to take them through, what becomes now the next step of their evolution? What is their new set of problems, that not only were they not aware of before, but they probably literally didn’t have before.

Thinking through that in advance, so that as you’re in a sense, creating those problems for those people, that you have a solution ready for them. That on the spot, you have that solution ready for them to engage in, or to purchase, or whatever the case might be.

And just one other thing I’ll add to that, I’ll add whatever clarity you feel I need to add, if there’s anything confusing about that, Darla. But one of the things that when people first start to think about this, the one thing that they don’t consider, or I think is trickier for people to consider, it’s one thing to say, hey, I’m either already or I’m intending to provide this specific transformation here. And then, I have to build on that, like what comes next, what comes next, what comes next?

In a lot of cases, it actually makes more sense to work backwards. So what was the problem that somebody had? What problem did somebody have to have solved, such that they’re ready to work with me? And if you work backwards, a lot of times, that sets people up for more success, because then if you set up your business model that way, you can actually charge a lot more for the key transformation that you’re looking to impart for people.

Darla LeDoux: Say more about why that is.

Justin Livingston: Well, the later somebody gets exposed to something in your business model, the more relational equity you have with them. Therefore, their willingness to invest time, energy and money goes up. So you gave an example of it a minute ago, when you clarified that, hey, you had these people down in Mexico, and you stuck them on a van and drove to the middle of nowhere, right?

So there was a large investment of time and trust that people put in, in that process. But they probably didn’t give it a second thought, because of where they were in their relationship with you. But had they just met you in a coffee shop, and you said, hey, get in a van with these other people and we’re going to drive into the woods, they probably would have called the police, right? You would’ve got a very different reaction.

And that’s just your intention. You are the same, your intention was the same. The process didn’t change. All that changed was the relational equity that either existed or didn’t exist.

Darla LeDoux: Yeah. Beautiful. So could you give an example with, like magnetize, monetize, like how that played out for you?

Justin Livingston: Yeah. So how this came to be in my company that I built with Callan, back in, I think, 2007 or 2008 or something like that, we started a company called Lucrative Luminary Training. So we were helping people with their live events. So Callan and I loved the live event space.

Where we learned a lot in the early days, anyway, we learned a lot about live events and seminars, and outdoor retreats and stuff like that, from a gentleman named Harv Eker. He had a company called Peak Potentials back in the day, which to my knowledge was the second biggest like personal development company in the world at the time.So both of us worked in his organization and learned a lot from him and his company.

So there was an entire, in North America anyway, there was an emerging market of people who were starting to get into speaking and live events and seminars and retreats and all this. It was like, growing really fast. A lot of it, I mean, we had some expertise and knowledge behind us, no question, but a lot of it was luck, because it was Wild West, and there was nobody teaching people this stuff back then.

So Callan and I were like, hey, we’ll teach you how to be successful. And so we started off with the intention of creating a program essentially, that taught people how to do it all. And so we got a couple of speaking engagements with some people I think you know, Darla, so they had a company that was helping people… Sorry, they were like holistic practitioners and coaches and the like, develop and build their practice.

So they brought us in as like specialists, and we thought, oh, this fun, we’ll just tie into like the back end of these people that are helping coaches, and we’ll just sell these like high end packages, where we’re teaching people the live event stuff. So that’s what we did and we sold a whole bunch, it was super easy because there was no one else doing it.

But we made a huge mistake. Basically, what we learned from the very beginning was, we way over promised. Hey, we’re going to help you with this and this and this. And then we thought, okay, we had all these people buy it. So then, like, we have to actually design the… we got to design our program and the live event, right? That’s what we realize, like, oh, there’s no way we can build this.

So I had to go back, I remember back then, this was even before webinars, I had to host a tele-class with, I don’t know, it was about 50 or 60 people that paid a couple thousand dollars for our course or something, and say, hey, sorry, here’s what you were promised. I don’t know if we’re total idiots or what, but there’s just no way.

But luckily, yeah, they were just so amazing about it. And so we had them, plus, we had access to all the people from working in Harv’s company, we had access to large numbers of live event leaders. So we just surveyed them, and basically asked them to prioritize the different areas of their business, as far as how much help they felt they needed or where they were struggling.

And it was like by far the number one issue was having trouble filling the events. So we’re just like, duh, let’s just start there. But then what we did was we said, okay, that’s what we’re going to specialize in. And luckily, that was primarily what I did in Harv’s company, so I had a lot of experience and knowledge there.

And then we built a spiral out of that. So we said, well, if we focus on helping people fill events, once somebody knows how to put a bunch of people in a room, what’s the next problem for them? Well, now they’re freaking out, because there’s people in a room, right? What are they sharing? How are they sharing it? How are they developing the content? How do they make sure that these people actually get value and enjoy the experience?

So for that, we developed a program to teach people how to create curriculum, how to create an optimal learning environment in a live event space, how to productize it, that type of stuff. And then on the back end of that, we had, again, it’s like, okay, now you know how to create this stuff and you can teach people at an event, but now how do you sell to the group to get them either into your coaching practice or into whatever the next level is?

So we had another program that had a five day event where we were teaching how to structure offers to deliver from the stage, and how to deliver them and stuff like that.

Darla LeDoux: So all three had a live component.

Justin Livingston: Yeah, how we did it always was, so the event filling one as called Magnetize your Audience, we had Mesmerize your Audience, which was where we not only taught the delivery of teaching, but also originally, we taught people how to create their curriculum and stuff in there, but then we broke that out and called it something else. Shoot. I think it’s called Materialize Your Programs. Then, we had Monetize your Audience, which was teaching to sell. Then, on the back end of that we had like the business side of it, which we called Maximize Your Audience. But anyway, yeah, so we taught it all through online video, the curriculum, and then each one had either a three, a four or a five day event.

Darla LeDoux: And then was it always from the live event that you offered the next step?

Justin Livingston: Always, yeah.

Darla LeDoux: So talk a little bit about that. Why is that?

Justin Livingston: To me, it’s again, I think you summarized it in I think your first sentence of this interview, it’s intimacy. If I want to sell, let’s say, I don’t know, I’ll just make up a number, if I want to sell 100 units of something, depending on the price point, of course and the market, but I’d have to put a lot of people onto a webinar to do that.

But I could do that with as little as 150 people at a live event. I’m not saying, again, that’s highly contextual on different factors. But that’s totally doable, certainly doable in a room of 300. And the reason why the conversions are so different at a live event, yeah, it just comes down to intimacy.

To me, I think of things, anytime I go to design a campaign of any kind, one of the things that’s front and center for me, in my words, I think of it as relational equity. What have I done here, or what can I do such that… And I think of it literally as relationship equity being deposited into a bank account. What is it that we’re doing, such that the connection between the face of this, if it’s me, or Callan or whomever, for any of you listening, for you and each member your audience? What has them feel like they like, trust and respect you?

And to me, it all boils down to that intimacy. Again, it’s like the difference between you telling a roomful of people, hey, we’re going to get in a van and drive into the middle of nowhere. People are like, yay, they’re probably excited to do it. As opposed to someone who’s calling the police. That’s just a relational equity issue. And the more relational equity that you have with somebody, the more they’ll be willing to pay for whatever it is that you’re offering.

And here’s the thing, when I say things like that, some people, including myself sometimes, like sometimes I don’t like saying things like that, it’s like what? So the better relationship you have, the more you gouge them. But there’s a couple of sides to that coin, and one of them is that when there’s enough relational equity, if you don’t charge enough, it’s a disconnect.

So I’m trying to think of an exact… Okay, this would be a great example, Darla. I mean, an extreme example, but it makes my point. If I were to, looking outside, my car is in the driveway here. So I have an Audi A5. So if I were to come to you and say, hey, you were like, oh, I love your car or whatever. I like Audis. I’d be like, oh, great. Hey, I tell you what, I’ve been thinking about selling it. I tell you what, 50 bucks, it’s yours. So what comes to mind? You’re going to assume right away that there’s something wrong with the car. Because that price point doesn’t make any sense, based on that context.

So if somebody is at an event of yours, let’s say, somebody comes to your three day retreat, and I don’t know, let’s say they paid $1,000 to be there, I’m just making that up. If someone’s listening and they only charge $500, that’s fine, or $2,000, whatever the number is, it is. We’re just going to say $1,000.

They have an experience, and they get value from that, and they’re loving it or whatever and then they come across an opportunity to attend another retreat from you at some future date. And the tuition of that program is $75. Another extreme example. But their mind has to make a rational justification as to why that price point is different than the current one.

Darla LeDoux: Even if it’s the same $1,000 again?

Justin Livingston: No. If it’s $1,000, that would be totally rational.

Darla LeDoux: I don’t know, because at least in business, if you’re an entrepreneur, but whatever you’re transforming, there’s a sense of progression, like I’ve progressed. So for me, like when I get in a habit of investing a certain amount, if something is less than that amount, I’m immediately like, my energetic commitment to that thing is not as high.

Justin Livingston: We’re talking the same language here. Though you’re giving an additional perspective, which is the energetic side of things. Which, yes, absolutely I agree with. I very rarely talk in those terms though, as that realm is not my area of expertise. But, yes, I totally agree.

So our brain has to make a justification as to why that is. So our brain will assume right off the bat that the thing that has, if I just invested $1,000 in something, now I have a similar opportunity for $75, that opportunity has to be lesser. It’s obviously a lesser opportunity, because I have to justify that.

Now, the thing to keep in mind about why I say the energetics of the same price point, I agree with you, and from the pursuit of wanting to, or having the ability to charge more, is that the context has changed since the person purchased something previous. It’s another thing that people forget in different contexts, they forget that the person paid for it before they attended, they paid that before the transformation they just went through. Before the intimacy and the connection and the relational equity has been invested. So they didn’t pay $1,000 for the transformation, they paid $1,000 for the opportunity to hopefully have the transformation. Those are very different things.

So to me, you can do yourself and the participant a big disservice if you don’t have an escalating scale of investment on both sides. So what that means is, the investment of time, energy and money on behalf of the participant should be trending up, with each step along the journey. And the value and exchange should also increase, both in depth of transformation, but also, you can think of it in terms of logistics, even.

In our model, the first program at a three day event, the second program had a four day event, the fifth program had a five day event.

Darla LeDoux: And that just makes sense too, as the person leading the event, that people are more committed at each level, like you don’t want to spend five days with people who may or may not be committed. I don’t want to spend that long.

Justin Livingston: So here’s an interesting thing, Darla, maybe you knew this already. But we thought through all of that in advance. So when Callan and I, when we were designing our model, we had our price points escalating, the length of the programs and the length of the live events, like everything, we made sure that it was going to be this escalating spiral of evolution. An evolution of transformation and connection and relational equity, all of these things.

And I can remember sitting there, because at that point, we didn’t even know what we were going to be teaching even yet, right? We thought through the structure first. And I can remember thinking like, looking at Callan, oh, my goodness, how the heck are we going to fill five days? Like what are you… That’s impossible. How can we fill five days of stuff? Sure enough, it was like packing a suitcase, right? We’re like, oh, we need a sixth day.

So I want to talk a little bit about, so business model wise, you guys had a program with videos and then a live event and then a program with videos and a live event, program with videos, live event.

Justin Livingston: And coaching.

Darla LeDoux: Was there one-on-one or group? Or how did that look?

It was all the coaching was group coaching. A little like, I don’t know what you would call it, tactic, I guess. We always referred to it as personal group coaching. Anyone who’s listening can feel free to steal that language, it worked well for us. And in our mind, the justification was that, yes, it was a group, but we talked to each person one-on-one.

And for most of the years in our business, I don’t know if this was true for the last couple years, maybe people had to volunteer. But for several years, we literally had it that way where we would have groups-

Darla LeDoux: There was time for every person?

Justin Livingston: We at least gave them the opportunity. If they didn’t have anything, we didn’t force them. But we checked in on every person and then when the calls got too big, we just added another cohort, another cohort, another cohort.

Now, to pull that off, I think it’s also important to let the listener know that we had coaches. I would have been crazy if Callan and I were trying to do all those. But we trained and paid coaches on our team to lead those. So anyway, so the name personal group coaching, we didn’t feel that there was… I mean, we did it as a clever kind of a thing to help it sell better, but we were totally comfortable with that, because that’s literally what it was anyway.

Then, I think any one-on-one opportunities I think we just used for like… We never promised to provide them. We would just use it in emergency measures. Like if somebody, I can’t even think of any examples, but I know it did happen where someone was just freaking out about something, either going through something significant, or just right up against the wall of their own whatever their block was or something. Or, someone was doing a live event and then the venue canceled on them with… Something crazy like that, then we would jump on the phone and do it.

Darla LeDoux: I’m thinking of the question that I would most want to get your take on, so now that you’re stepped away, and I feel like I want to share a little bit, because we talked about this before the recording. You helped me develop my funnel, where I was able to fill my rooms for years, without any sales conversation. So I had, I call it the retreat revenue roadmap, my free gift, that led to the webinar, that led to the offer, which was a bundle of my course.

So I had a nine week course, nine modules, still have that. I’ve redone it, improved it, but we still have that course, nine modules. And then it would come with a ticket to the retreat. And we did the positioning thing of, you get the keys and you get the car for free.

Justin Livingston: Okay, good.

Darla LeDoux: Which is part of, I think what worked so well. For me, filled is 16 people. So three or four retreats a year, 16 people, which is kind of the intimacy that I like. And I took it down, Justin, when I was having a retreat, and we would help them build out their model and we’d reverse engineer it and there’s a back end and a front end. And then this retreat is like a conversion event, I call it the Rich Retreat. We would help them build it out.

And I had a retreat where I had 16 people and afterward, I had this feeling that probably four of them were actually going to do it. Like follow through and implement. And I suddenly didn’t want people coming for free anymore. So I’ve taken it down and revamped the pricing, and it’s actually really a premium price to come get in the room.

Justin Livingston: You sell the education component and then you sell the live event, like as an upsell or as an additional thing? I think you had made that transition-

Darla LeDoux: That’s what I used to do. And then I went to giving it free, which worked great for filling the room.

Justin Livingston: Then you switched it back.

Darla LeDoux: But now I switched it back to having it be an investment to come to the retreat, which has shifted, I don’t want to say the quality of people, because that’s not… maybe the commitment level of the people.

Justin Livingston: I always think it’s so great when people say that.

Darla LeDoux: Yeah, like the value system of our people is always consistent, like we attract amazing humans, but maybe the commitment level to actually taking the next step was higher. So I’m curious, just as you’ve… which I think is really great with where the market is going. Because like you said, people are more savvy, they’re more aware of their options.

I’m not sure what my question is, but maybe to kind of riff on that, like with more savvy customers and then being, for me, the shift is to… if someone’s going to get on a plane and go anywhere, there’s a higher level of commitment needed on both sides, I think, these days. Versus, at least for me, in the beginning, I was like live event, like get me in the room, I’ll meet some people, it’ll be great. And it was really easy for me to make a choice to sign up for an event. And now, it takes a lot for me to do that.

Justin Livingston: Yeah. Well, you know what, it’s an interesting thing. I feel like I’m going to half apologize or at least the angle I’m going to go here. Well, just to say that, because I’m going to talk about markets maturing again.

Darla LeDoux: Awesome.

Justin Livingston: It’s just where my brain is 24/7, I’ve been like doing nothing but study this stuff for like three years now. And anyway, just studying the history of different industries and how they evolve and mature and where’s their uniqueness and where’s their things that are the same like every single time?

One of the things that, if you think about like any market, if you think about automobiles, I’m just kind of looking out of the homes around here, like real estate, one of the ways that’s going to differentiate transformation leaders moving forward is how much people have to invest to work with you. That’s going to be a key differentiator.

And what happens as a marketplace becomes competitive, and this happens in every industry, is that everyone gets in a race to the bottom. And then a few either super smart or super brave or crazy people do the opposite. And those are the ones that end up being the most successful. The ones, I think that, the people that are going to have an easier time in the different niches of transformation moving forward, are the ones that are brave enough to charge more for their services.

Now, they’re going to have to back that up with a value proposition, which is going to mean providing the transformation that you are promising, and making sure that that community, connection and intimacy and all of that stuff, like that you double, triple, quadruple down on providing that. What I mean is, when I say double, triple, quadruple down, if I were what I think of as a practitioner right now, which I’m not, but if I were, if I were leading retreats, or if I was a coach or whatever, aside from whatever like professional advancement I would want to pursue with regards to my modality and getting better at what I do, where I’d be spending my time is in mastering community.

I would be spending all of my time, my free time, energy, money, the programs I would be taking and events, I would be learning more and more about how to establish community and how to constantly and continuously be deepening the connection between the members of my audience. Definitely at my retreats and live events, but even beyond that, into virtual worlds, or whatever other things you have going on in your particular business model. And that’s going to be one of the key things that will justify those higher investment levels.

Darla LeDoux: I was going to say earlier, when you were talking about the escalation of the investment, for me, both as a buyer and as a seller, after I’ve gone through a retreat or an event or an experience with people, and I’m connected with them, that immediately increases the value of the next level, if only those people are going to the next level. Right? I already know the people, they know me, there’s the sense of we’re vetted.

So not only have I had a transformation, so I’m in a different context after the retreat, but I also know these people. And they now have value to me, and not just, because that again, could feel kind of weird. Oh, you have to pay to hang out with these people. But it’s not just the people, but like the level of transformation that they’re at, right? We’re all coming in with the same context and you can’t go out in the world and gather your own group of people who are coming in with that same context.

Justin Livingston: Yeah. Another thing to build on that is, because you were saying that, like using yourself as an example, right? You go through a thing at the end, those people have value to you. But the other thing that’s also true, that’s significant is that you have value to those people. And they know it, but so do you.

For me, again, everyone relates to this stuff a little bit differently. But I’ve been a part of a group where we meet three times a year in different parts around the world and stuff. I think it’s okay to say who it is. Yeah, that’s okay. You know, it’s with Jeff Walker’s community. And I don’t know, I’ve been in that six years or some crazy thing.

I will never leave that group. And the crazy thing about it is, that it’s a group of people that feel the exact same way I do. And it, really, for me, the events themselves I find more and more, I think this is okay to say, they’re boring. To me, just for wherever I’m at these days, like to sit in a room and talk about launches, or funnels or even business growth, that type of stuff. I’m just like, what, really? We’re still talking about this? I’d rather know, like what’s cool about your relationship right now, or what stage are your kids at? You know what I mean? But whatever.

But my point is that it’s not the event that brings me back, and it’s not even so much the value I get from those people, there’s a need in me to continuously be of value to them. Because they’re like my family, I know for a fact that if I backed out, I would be letting them down. And that’s just a product of a strong community that actually doesn’t have anything to do with me. That’s just, in this case, a gentleman named Jeff Walker, who did a phenomenal job of creating a great community of people that have a significant depth of connection with one another.

And he lives, I don’t know if people know this about Jeff, he lives in an intentional community.

Darla LeDoux: Oh, in Durango?

Justin Livingston: Yeah. So it’s like this stuff is in his blood, like he knows. He’s phenomenal at creating, establishing, building community. And again, if I was a practitioner, I mean, I’m not, and I’m still trying to learn. But definitely, if I were still leading my own events and building that type of a business of any kind, that’s where I’d be investing my time, energy and money.

And if you look at some of the people who are just like, in our little sandbox, anyway, of people that are teaching the business side of transformation, you look at the people who are just like owning the space right now. People like Stu McLaren, like if you don’t know Stu McLaren, go look him up. Because, man, he is phenomenal and yeah, he’s smart, his content is great, he knows his stuff, he delivers. All the fundamentals of what he does are great, delivers on what he promises.

But what sets him apart is the strength of the community that he’s built. Like he has this community, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people that absolutely worship that guy. Like they love him to death and each other, and it shows

Darla LeDoux: I took his course, actually, he does a lot of that online. Obviously, he has events, but he cultivates that online. And just for our listeners, that’s one of the things that we teach in our new certification is really, how do you do that in person? I am not great at doing it online, truly. And our people love to get out from behind their computers. Online is a little like… But, yeah, I definitely sense that. And he teaches that in his course, how to do that through the membership.

Awesome. I love that. I love that that’s what you would invest in, because that’s a lot of what I’m teaching. So that feels great.

Justin Livingston: Great.

Darla LeDoux: Specifically for the live experience.

Justin Livingston: I believe it’s been a differentiator and it’s going to become more and more and more the case. And not only will it be more effective as a differentiator, but people have to realize that the idea of differentiation is only now starting to even be important, because the market just wasn’t evolved to the place where that mattered. Callan and I didn’t have to differentiate ourselves from anyone else, we were the only ones making the promise. What did it care? But times change.

Darla LeDoux: I have a thought, something I’ve been noticing. I have a hypothesis. I’m not even sure if I should share it. But when you said you go to Jeff’s community and the actual content, you’re kind of like, but it’s the connection that you’re seeking. And while I’m kind of taking some action on this, but it’s all just a test right now.

But I feel that, at times with my community, that sometimes the content is in the way of what people are actually craving. And so what I see is different, like content driven retreats, that are, let me learn this, let me implement it while I’m there. And then transformation driven retreats, where it’s like, let’s give the individual, how do I apply this transformation, is so personal. I’m really, really great at leading exercises to, okay, you just had the transformation, what does it mean for you? I’m not going to teach you like the three steps to filling your retreat or having a sales… It’s like what does it mean to you and how do you apply it to where you’re at?

I’m curious, your thoughts about that, like that duality. It kind of speaks to what you were talking about earlier.

Justin Livingston: It does. And to me, how we try to do it, when I say we, I mean, Callan and myself, even in the program that you ran with me, the attempt there was to have the content be separate from the meeting time or the getting together in person. And now, that’s not always easy for two reasons. One, not everyone pays-

Darla LeDoux: Watches the content.

Justin Livingston: Exactly. Not everyone does that. So then you got to expect that. So there’s got to be probably some type of component or something. And I don’t know, at the live events that we did in the program you are referring to when we did the love seats, which is our kind of lingo for what people call hot seats, or whatever. But essentially, all that means is, every participant would go up in front of the room, and they had the room’s undivided attention for a block of time, where we could talk anything about them or their business or whatever it is they felt they needed help and support with.

And, yeah, for me, my own experience of those would be, some of them would be about something technical about business or their upcoming launch or something like that. And I would do my best to give them value and I think more often than not, I did, and the group did. But, man, those were boring.

Justin Livingston: To me, like the best ones, and some of the ones that I’ll never-

Darla LeDoux: I agree. The subject lines. I’m like, please, not another subject line, please, not another subject line.

Justin Livingston: Yeah, the webinar title is the one I used to joke about. But some of them, people would get up there, they’d hold the microphone and then they’d go to speak and then they couldn’t. They’d start crying or something, and not that everything’s about tears necessarily, but to me, those were, whether it that are some else.

Darla LeDoux: That’s when the transformation happened.

Justin Livingston: Or some indication that’s like, oh, we’re about to talk about something that actually matters. And my experience of those, those conversations were the most valuable for the participant and the entire room. So with as much as you can, you have to give, when you’re delivering, we have to give heed to that which we promised, I believe. And what people are expecting based on that promise.

And then I think it’s our responsibility as the leader, as the magician, or whatever, I don’t know how you think about it, Darla, but the as the individual who’s holding the context and the experience to a certain degree, it’s our responsibility to come up with a way to create the magic above and beyond the promise and the expectation. Because we get people there on that promise and expectation, but then it’s up to us to create the context that the real stuff actually occurs.

And the real stuff, I mean, depending, and this is contextual too, but in a lot of cases, it’s hard to get people to show up for the real stuff. Because it’s great when we get up in front of the room and we share something and there’s some big transformation that occurs. That happens, because the room is there. But in preparation for that when people are getting ready to come, the room isn’t there yet. So it’s so easy for the person just to not do it. Just to not come.

Justin Livingston: Anyway, so that’s kind of the dilemma as I see it.

Darla LeDoux: I believe that part of this savvy market is people are becoming more savvy about this very conversation.

Justin Livingston: 100%.

Darla LeDoux: And when I started in 2009, the conversation was, you can’t sell transformation. And I believe that people are more aware, not everybody, but a lot of people are aware when they need transformation and when they need information. And it used to be, I would sell my back end offer, it was just like magic, right? Like you will get a transformation, you’ll get information, it’ll be whatever you need and it’ll be perfect, right? Three retreats a year and you get to talk to me.

And now it’s much more people are aware if they need the mindset, or if they need the practical and where they are in their journey. And I think that’s really cool, and it really puts more responsibility on us to be really clear within ourselves about, what do I really want to offer, so I am living up to the promise? And not promising things that I don’t want to deliver, because I don’t want to do another hot seat, where I’m talking about webinar titles or whatever.

Justin Livingston: Yeah, yeah, I think you’re so bang on there. It’s still one of the things, I still have a bit of trouble, like I forget, I get into the old habits. And how that occurs for me, or I assume what the other people’s experience of it is, is what’s the word? In sales training what they call selling past the close, or essentially, I forget that people have more of that awareness, now. And I feel like I have to know like, no, no, no, you have to know what you’re going to, the application or what you’re going to get or what the framework is. I think I have to get into the nuts and bolts of it, which we used to have to do.

Justin Livingston: But like you’re saying, yeah-

Darla LeDoux: Now, I just recorded the first podcast in this series, I’m talking about how if it’s too tangible, you’ll actually turn people away, who know that they need some fucking magic that they can’t even predict.

Justin Livingston: Here’s a funny example. At least I think it’s funny. This isn’t totally apples to apples, but it’s like, you’re talking about… what I’m going to say is just like a tiny piece of the phenomena that you’re speaking to.

But I mentioned before that we had a three day event, a four day event and a five day event, like as our price points went up, the length of the event was one of the ways that we gave the rational justification for that, right? Well, the lengths of the programs also increased. They went from, I can’t remember, from a 12 week to a six month, maybe to an 18 month. I don’t know, or something, but they got longer and longer.

Because at one point, more stuff implied more value. Well, this isn’t brand new, I mean, a number years ago that started to flip actually. And the first time I saw it was a guy, one of my mentors, a gentleman named Alex Mendoza. And I think you know of him. He told me, this is, I don’t know, maybe four years ago or something like that. He had this program, I don’t know what he charged for it, let’s just say it was 10 grand or whatever and it was a year long.

And then he said, but for 15 grand or whatever, some escalated price point, you can do it in six. He did the exact same thing. All he did was, instead of sending out the modules every two weeks, they got it every week, he cut the time in half, they got it twice as fast, in other words. And they got their coaching calls, it was the exact same thing, but just at double the speed and the people invested more money for it.

Darla LeDoux: That’s amazing. Yeah, why would I wait a year if I could get it in six months?

Justin Livingston: Totally.

Darla LeDoux: That’s awesome. Okay, I have one last question. I can’t not ask this, since you’ve been studying all the different markets and the evolution and all of that and we’re talking about people being more savvy in this market. How do you make the market bigger? Because there’s so many people who have no idea even how to market.

Justin Livingston: That’s the riddle I’m working on right now, actually. Before this, I told you there was something that was like frustrating me. That’s a project I’m working on. Here’s the thing, I think that’s a super interesting question that we could talk for hours about.

Darla LeDoux: I just want the answer in like two minutes.

Justin Livingston: Well, here’s the thing. For most people, I think it’s an irrelevant question, in my opinion, and here’s why. As markets mature, again, we’ll go back to my, hopefully no one’s getting sick of hearing that, there becomes a split in the companies that make up that market. And I think of them, in terms of, I think I’ve shared this with you before, I think of it in terms of practitioners and platforms.

So people like in the real estate space as that matures, there is a clear divide, now we have realtors, the people that sell the homes and do the work, they make the promise, they deliver the promise. And then we have the realties, the companies that provide all the infrastructure. Whereas way back in the day, they used to be one and the same, a realtor had to have their own infrastructure.

In transformation, the businesses like if you look at the company I built with Callan, we were an industry leader for a while. And we had a hybrid business. Callan was making the promises, we were delivering for the most part. And we had some coaches and other facilitators. But it was a glorified practice, but we built all of our own infrastructure internally. We had to, because the market was so young, there were no providers back then. I still remember building and testing and designing our opt-in pages, there was no lead pages and ClickFunnels and all this stuff. We had to do it ourselves, right?

Well, as markets mature and it grows, there becomes opportunities for suppliers to come in and then the whole landscape changes. So for the most part, people who are leading retreats, those are the practitioners of the space. The people that are actually like boots on the ground, so to speak, actually delivering the transformation, like the hub of the whole thing, the importance of the whole thing, the people that none of this exists without, those are the practitioners of the space.

And more and more, this is going to be the case, that the people that are successful in that area are going to be the ones that focus on that, on the depth of transformation. That’s the opposite of breadth. So whereas in the Wild West space, Callan and I, our business was kind of built for a bit of both. We had some depth on things, but we were trying to grow and scale and build all our own infrastructure, we had this kind of hybrid thing.

But now, if you look at our business, or any, I could start naming names of people, all the people you know, like the contemporaries of mine and Callan’s people had similar size and scale and whatever. Believe me when I say, because I know, like literally, I’ve been in consulting in all of those companies, the profit margins of those businesses are now, they’ve been decimated. And many of them don’t even exist anymore.

And the reason is, because that style of business, or that model of business is incredibly inefficient once the market matures. So you can’t do both, and it doesn’t exist in any mature market. There is no one entity that provides both the depth of transformation and the scale. You have to look far and wide to find a successful realtor with their own realty. You know what I mean? Like, there’s no mom and pop shop that’s doing both of those things. It’s too inefficient, you can’t compete. The only way to even attempt to do it is to drastically overcharge the consumer, to make up for the inefficiencies. And of course, that just doesn’t work.

So the reason why I say, for most people, why I believe that to be an irrelevant question is because that’s not the job of the practitioner, to grow the market.

Darla LeDoux: I’m with you.

Justin Livingston: And now, it is the job of somebody, some company, that’s essentially what we’re trying to do with MentorHub. So we’re looking at, I mean, I would love to say, we can talk about it right now, if you want. But I have a feeling that’s going to be like another 90 minutes of our episode, which I mean-

Darla LeDoux: You need to invest that time in actually your little project you’re working on over there.

Justin Livingston: Figure out how to actually pull it off, instead of just talking about it.

Darla LeDoux: I love that. I love that. And I’m a glorified practitioner at the moment, because I have a lot of infrastructure, but I’m really providing a lot of the service. Yet, I’m always thinking ahead, also. And my mission is not dissimilar to yours, in a way, but is to normalize transformation on the planet. That as humans, we have a language and a way of relating about what we’re going through, that it’s not weird, that it’s not crazy to like go fly off somewhere and go on retreat and that type of thing.

So for me to achieve my mission, which I’m not there yet, looks like expanding the market, right? More people know what the hell this means.

Justin Livingston: My invitation to you there, I mean, unless you’ve already-

Darla LeDoux: No, I’ll take it.

Justin Livingston: Well, you may have already thought this through, but what you just said, like that vision of creating a new experience for humanity. I forget the exact language you gave it. Do you remember what you said?

Darla LeDoux: Normalizing transformation.

Justin Livingston: Normalizing transformation. That cannot be done by a practitioner. Impossible. So the model has to be completely different, right? In the language of practitioner platform, that’s a platform play. I mean, I’d love to have further conversation with you about what that looks like and what your intentions are and stuff.

And I still remember some of the conversations we had about some of your ideas. I remember you at some point, I don’t know if this is still a pursuit, but you were talking about a, it was like a marketplace of sorts, where there would be different workshops, and you’d be promoting them. Kind of like an Airbnb kind of a thing. But for live events and retreats.

That’s an example. Now, whether or not it’s a literal thing or not, isn’t the point I’m making. But that’s an example of something that could actually have a chance of achieving the objective that you’re setting.

Darla LeDoux: Yes. So my first step, like I showed you, is my first four certified people. But to really first distinguish, what is that language? And kind of what you’re talking about, where if you come to a retreat led by someone in our company, you know you’ll get the transformation as an outcome. And that that person is very well equipped to do that. That’s step one.

Justin Livingston: Super smart.

Darla LeDoux: I’m playing at that game at the moment.

Justin Livingston: Good. Yeah, for any practitioner, as you probably well know, for the last, I don’t know, three years or so, or I don’t know how long, probably three years, I’ve been having this conversation a lot about maturing markets and all this stuff. But one of the things for any practitioner out there, that if it’s on your mind, like this idea of legacy, or like what happens above and beyond your working days, with regards to your body of content, your expertise, the lowest hanging fruit for this idea of platform or legacy, your work living beyond you, the mass transformation impact, however you want to visualize it, however you want to talk about it, the easiest, lowest hanging fruit available to you is creating a certification.

And I have no idea why Callan and I didn’t do that in our company. That was like dumb, so dumb. I’m super happy that you’re on that train. Anyway, in my opinion, looking back on it, it’s really hard to justify why we didn’t do that. In fact, I don’t think I could justify it, if I had to.

Darla LeDoux: For a long time, I felt, I don’t even have my certifications on my website. Because to me, they’re not relevant, because I know my skills. Yet, lately, I’ve been looking to get more training in certain areas and I’m so frustrated that I can’t find the certification I want to take. So I love that. I love that. [crosstalk 01:08:56] different place.

Justin Livingston: I don’t know if that’s why it was for me… Yeah, maybe that’s what it was more like, an inner block for me, because I, myself, like the idea of a certification, I don’t value them, personally. But I needed to take some of my own medicine, because I don’t know how many times over the years I’ve told clients and students to be very careful that you don’t build your business according to your own preferences. That’s a very dangerous proposition, when you make assumptions that people are like you or prefer what you prefer.

Darla LeDoux: Well, certification can communicate some level of rigor in whatever they’re presenting. I don’t know, I’ve been looking for a certification and I know I don’t need it, but that word, it’s like, oh, I know what that means. Not that I would even put it on my website.

Darla LeDoux: Anyway, awesome.

Justin Livingston: Super smart.

Darla LeDoux: Justin, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom here and I hope I’ve been able to give you some energy. I know you’ve been in your rabbit hole for a few days, working on your stuff.

Justin Livingston: I have been.

Darla LeDoux: I’m excited to see what comes of it. And I hope to be a client for MentorHub, as it becomes the solution.

Justin Livingston: Yeah, yeah.

Darla LeDoux: Anything I can do for you?

Justin Livingston: Not off the top of my head. This was fun. Hopefully, people got some value from it, and I didn’t ramble too much.

Darla LeDoux: I think it’s awesome. Awesome.

Justin Livingston: But yeah, it was fun conversation. Thank you for having me.

Darla LeDoux: Thank you so much, and we’ll see you soon, I hope.

Justin Livingston: Thank you.

Darla LeDoux: Bye, Justin.

Have you been called to integrate retreats into the way you do business?

Are you a coach, consultant, creative, or healer who tends to be on the cutting edge with the way you work? Are you ready to integrate transformation into your offerings in a way that your clients get better results, faster, all while you simplify and leverage your time?

If so, it might be time to start leading transformational retreats. Transformational retreats are only going to get more popular as our world gets busier, and more and more people are opting to invest in experience and transformation over stuff and information.

If you’re a part of that shift and you want your live experiences to get traction now get our five-part starter kit today.

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